gloranthafandomcom-20200215-history
Talk:Sun Dragon
True Dragon IMHO, Sun Dragon is not a True Dragon. Because All EWF Ring members "failed". He certainly appeared in Dragonkill, but appeared as a shadow. Terra incognita 12:43, August 24, 2011 (UTC) Using the terminology in the Ingolf text, all EWF leader dragons (Drang, Lord Burin...) were Great Dragons, not True Dragons, even including Ingolf. The term is a bit unfortunate, since "The goal of the EWF was to reconstruct the Great Dragon" (Genertela Box, Glorantha Book pg.22). There must have been quite a few successful EWF humans who went all the way to true dragonhood, but they had little to nothing to do with the running political system of the EWF. Apart from Ingolf, none of the leaders used any of the paths that could have led to ultimate true dragonhood, but used the accelerated (and ultimately doomed, for individual ascension) method. However, it remains unknown whether their plot using the accelerated method to take all the EWF populace along to True Dragonhood (somehow emulating Darudism, possibly taking it to the extreme of taking the populace and the land along in the process) could have worked. The Dara Happan Sun Dragon Emperor and the Sun Dragon manifest in Pavis wouldn't be identical if the text is entirely correct. Jorganos 13:47, August 24, 2011 (UTC) Obduran didn't fail and the Sun Dragon is given the powers of a dragon in Nomad Gods. Because of this, I think that "is a failure as a dragon" and "true dragon" status are not the same thing and no advantage can come trying to distinguish some dragons as not true dragons. Metcalph 08:16, August 25, 2011 (UTC) You're right, Peter - I overlooked that Obduran served on the Ring of what was becoming the EWF before withdrawing to meditate. Apart from him, of all the leaders of the Third Council only Ingolf appears to have been a mystic not drawn on a short cut path (though I wonder what he did with that worship channeled towards him). There were a lot of mystics who followed Obduran's example and reached individual True Dragonhood - without manifesting this in the Middle World before their final ascension. Checking the Pavis and Big Rubble page on the Sun Dragon, I'm not sure what to think about it. The cult claims that there is a Sun Dragon behind the individual entities heading the cult, be it the Dragon Sun emperor or the Golden Wyrm succeeding it. In WB&RM/Nomad Gods scale combat, there is no real difference between a True Dragon like Krisa Yar or a Great Dragon like Drang. Jorganos 11:13, August 25, 2011 (UTC) I simply don't see the evidence for Drang not being a True Dragon. Orlanth killed Sh'hakazeel and Aroka. Were they false Dragons as a result of their deaths? On the larger subject of draconicism - please avoid the use of mysticism. I do not see it productive or necessary to state that Ingolf was a true mystic or that Lord Burin was a false one - both were flawed and Ingolf was more of a failure than Burin. If anything it draws to heavily on the now abandoned mysticism rules of hero wars. The spiritual flaws of the EWF leaders (and others) can be adequately on their own terms without heavy-handed rules jargon. That the Dragon Sun may not be the same as the Sun Dragon is an arguable point. Metcalph 11:53, August 25, 2011 (UTC)